André ([info]n_true) wrote,
@ 2006-07-08 00:20:00
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Current mood: hot
Current music:Машидат Омарасхабова - Зов любви
Entry tags:qotd, tsez

Агь, жо перо... °-°
Cyrillic Tsez:
Ахир дāьхъор дей цез иславар йайси, гьовжи даьр цахелъхо цезхор дāьз журналйар! Ди Макс-Планк-Институтā кумак-жекIу охъа ретих, цахси ди параписур дохтурер Бернард Комрир, амма жо жаваб бойчIус. ХIулъ ди берцинав Заира эсирси ди нети нелъар нелъас наку нелIāлъ; жа каха-цаха Дагъистанар йāт хъварши мец къикъирхой. Гъудиби гьичIчIа бобо йолълIин элIис, жаIхъулъ Заира цахси: «Гьуду, гьичIчIа боркьарав йолъ. Дей ата гъваIгъваIлIхо йолъ.» :)

Latin Tsez:
Axir dǟqor dey cez islawar yaysi, howži där caxełxo cezxor dǟz žurnalyar! Di Max-Plank-Institutā kumak-žekʼu oqa retix, caxsi di parapisur doxturer Bernard Comrie:r, amma žo žawab boyčʼus. Ħuł di bercinaw Zaira esirsi di neti nełar nełas naku neƛāł; ža kaxa-caxa Daɣistanar yāt qʷarši mec qʼiqʼirxoy. Ɣudibi hičʼčʼa bobo yołƛin eƛis, žˤaqʼuł Zaira caxsi: "Hudu, hičʼčʼa borƛʼaraw yoł. Dey ata ɣʷˤaɣʷˤaƛxo yoł." :)


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[info]ubykhlives
2006-07-08 12:32 am UTC (link)
Oh, I envy you. :) I do find it interesting that you continue to write pharyngealisation as a consonantal feature, not a vocalic one...? Have you come to a decision about that yet?

And recently I've been reading Helma van den Berg's overview of North-East Caucasian that appeared in the journal Lingua, issue 115 (2005), in which she also states that depending upon the language, pharyngealisation in NEC can be considered consonantal or vocalic (or, as new research by Alexandr Kibrik indicates, perhaps prosodic). Would you like me to send you that article? It's very good.

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[info]n_true
2006-07-08 12:55 am UTC (link)
I think I have, but actual as vocalic feature. It's just that a "pre-vocalic" orthography seems more pleasing. :)

I am (slowly but steadily) translating the grammar and phonology section of the book (I can send it to you, when finished). Khalilov assumes the pharyngealization is in fact a feature of the vowels; he writes:
E.A. Bokarev considers the pharyngealised vowels to be ˤa, ˤi, ˤe, ˤu, ˤo (although according to I.V. Megrelidze, D.S. Imnaishvili, R.N. Rajabova the pharyngeals are only ɣˤ, xˤ, qˤ, q’ˤ). — unfortunately he doesn't explain his reasons it in further detail in the dictionary. I am of Khalilov's and Bokarev's opinion. Not only because Bokarev was an Esperantist and I know Khalilov's daughter (;)), but because to me it seems more logical to assume pharyngealization of all the 5 vowels. There are words that start with a pharyngeal vowel and other words where such a vowel follows an m or b... so according to Occam's razor, I prefer it to be vocalic. :)
Haven't started thinking about the labialization, though. Oh, and the dialect from the book seems to be a little different in its phonology. There are some more vowels (especially the umlauts ä and ǟ. How weird. It makes me all confused. :S

Oh yes, please send it. I'd love to read more about Caucasian languages but I'm often too lazy (or let's say, too "busy") to go to the library.
If I remember right, Helma van den Berg used to be at our Max-Planck-Institut as well...

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[info]ubykhlives
2006-07-08 07:43 am UTC (link)
You should have received the paper by now. ;)

I think I have, but actual as vocalic feature. It's just that a "pre-vocalic" orthography seems more pleasing. :)

By all means. :) I was just wondering, because in the Latinised version you have the word žˤaqʼuł, and ž isn't a consonant that is normally pharyngealised. Although, I suppose Arabic has sˤ...

I am (slowly but steadily) translating the grammar and phonology section of the book (I can send it to you, when finished).

I would appreciate that. Thank you. Speaking of translating, how is your dictionary coming along?

I am of Khalilov's and Bokarev's opinion. Not only because Bokarev was an Esperantist and I know Khalilov's daughter (;))

Is this the Zaira you refer to in your entries?

but because to me it seems more logical to assume pharyngealization of all the 5 vowels. There are words that start with a pharyngeal vowel

That's why I'm beginning to agree with you. Since pharyngealisation as a consonantal feature would be expected to affect the vowel that follows it (because the primary syllable shape in NEC seems to be CV(C)), having a word with an initial pharyngealised vowel basically destroys that theory.

and other words where such a vowel follows an m or b...

But then, Ubykh proves that two separate pharyngealised sets are possible: labials /bˁ pˁ pˁʼ mˁ wˁ vˁ/, and uvulars /qˁ qˁʼ ʁˁ χˁ qʷˁ qʷˁʼ ʁʷˁ χʷˁ/. :P

so according to Occam's razor, I prefer it to be vocalic. :)

Okay, you've convinced me. ;)

Haven't started thinking about the labialization, though.

It seems that Chamalal, at least, demonstrates labialisation in both syllable-initial and syllable-final position, which would indicate that it's probably a fundamental consonantal feature. Nevertheless, on the basis of pairs such as /hekʷʼas̄u.Ø/ of the man (class I) and /hekʷʼas̄ʷ.i/ of the man (class II), I guess that perhaps labialisation is often the result of vocalic reduction, like what's found in Georgian with the reduction of o and u to v in some morphological forms - compare მინდორი field versus მინდვრები fields. I don't know whether you could call labialisation a consonantal feature in view of that. Does it happen in Tsez?

Oh, and the dialect from the book seems to be a little different in its phonology. There are some more vowels (especially the umlauts ä and ǟ. How weird. It makes me all confused. :S

Interesting! There are a lot of umlauted vowels in NEC languages (have you seen the vowel system of Chechen?); there are some in the South Caucasian languages too, particularly some dialects of Svan. There are a few things that make me think it may have been relevant to NWC in the past too.

If I remember right, Helma van den Berg used to be at our Max-Planck-Institut as well...

Yes, that's right. She was actually doing fieldwork in Daghestan when she died in 2003. I've actually thought about coming to the Institut; it has a very good reputation in Caucasian linguistics.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
gamalav salam.
(Anonymous)
2007-10-01 10:31 pm UTC (link)
mi şebi debi çi şebi mina içiğh di ıstanbulto içiğh deber baqu salam begirgho di deber retınay dar to çagho di teteran çaghru baku salam big biçi.

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Re: gamalav salam.
[info]n_true
2007-10-01 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Can you please tell me your E-Mail adress, Mr. Gamalav?

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